So let us cooperate.

At about 7:30 Lekhasravanti brought two Catholic priests, Monseigneur Clement Kern, who is very prominent in the local area, and the Reverend Edward L. Scheuerman, who runs the church across the street. Prabhupada remained out on the veranda with all the devotees and they sat opposite him on wooden benches. They were both friendly and pleased to meet Prabhupada. Prabhupada opened up the conversation by observing that nowadays people are not interested in God. The priests agreed, although Monseigneur Kern noted that, as with our Movement, there is a new phenomena within the Christian church called the Charismatic movement which is attracting many young people. Srila Prabhupada asked Jayadvaita prabhu to explain why young men and women were coming to his Movement. Jayadvaita, who is Jewish by birth, told the priests that Srila Prabhupada was giving us information not just that God is great, but how God is great?what His name is, what His form is, what His world is. Generally, he told them, there's no specific information on these things, but through the Vedic literature we can understand them. Monseigneur Kern gave a considered reply. "I suppose that theology, study of God, is quite specific. Now whether would that information be given to groups?yes, I think so. We would speak of God as revealing Himself to us in very many ways. And therefore a group as large as this... For example, tonight, Tuesday, there would be meetings of young people, Roman Catholics?and probably Protestants too, but I'm just thinking of Roman Catholic young people?who would be praying very earnestly and searching for God's revelation to them through their friends, neighbors and their own experience of God. I'm not familiar with the Charismatic movement yet, so I'm only speaking in great generalities." Dhristadyumna, who had once contemplated becoming a Christian monk, spoke up. "The difficulty I have found by my personal experience with these groups is that it couldn't give me a concrete enough realization, neither a whole, practical lifestyle by which I could stay on the platform of God realization. You can go to the meeting, but then when you go out in the society you're forced to act in so many sinful ways because of the conditioning and the advertising and the force of pressure in the society. I lived in a Trappist monastery in Spencer, Massachusetts, with the monks there, and there was still that gap between how I could not only fulfill my own spiritual life there, but also how to help others in theirs, without losing my purity. And that I've been able to find in this Krishna consciousness movement, because it gives you a twenty-four-hour a day program to remain in God consciousness." Prabhupada took up from Dhristadyumna's lead-in, quoting from Bhagavad-gita 7.28. He said it was not possible to have an experience of God if one remained sinful, and therefore there was a need in human society to train people how to be sinless. "We have to teach people how to refrain from sinful activities. Then, when he's pure, then God will reveal. If we keep them in sinful life, at the same time we want to preach them, it will not be possible. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is said that those who are animal killer, they cannot understand about God. So if in the human society unnecessary animal killing is encouraged, he will never be able to understand what is God. The greatest sinful activity, pasu-ghna. So in human society, unnecessarily animal killing is going on. So they are entangled in sinful activities; therefore they are unable to understand what is God." He went on to speak of the need for training at least one group of people to come to the first-class standard of a brahmana. Monseigneur Kern, who spoke in a measured, slightly sing-song tone, seemed mainly concerned about the poor, needy and disabled. Prabhupada however, told him that this type of work is not so important. "You have to accept it. But as far as possible we can give them help. That is not the question. Question is, those who are not handicapped, they are rotting without education, without enlightenment by keeping themselves as fourth-class, fifth-class men. Why not train them to become first-class men? That is the point. If one is blind, you cannot give him eyes. If one is lame, you cannot give him leg. That is beyond your ability. That is another thing; we shall deal with them later on. First of all, those who are born as human beings, why should you keep them as third-class, fourth-class men?" He told them that we cannot expect that everyone will become first class, but there must be at least one class of man who is peaceful and self-controlled. "If there is a first-class man on the head of the society, then everything will be done properly." The priests found many parallels in the teachings of Jesus with what Prabhupada said. Reverend Scheuerman especially was enlivened and asked if Prabhupada had some plan or some thoughts in the way in which we and they could mutually cooperate. "Oh, yes. There is plan," Prabhupada assured him. "Now suppose if I say, 'Let us create some peaceful man,' so who will disagree with this? I don't say everyone will be peaceful, but some of them can be trained up. Some of them can be trained up courageous in battle. We have to select by practical psychology what is the tendency. Similarly we should divide,... " "In other words, you would utilize practical psychology in the selection of people for the various levels?" Reverend Scheuerman asked. "Yes. Just like I have already said that to keep your body in order you require to keep the head, the hands, the belly and the legs in order. Otherwise, there will be disorder. The present position of the whole human society is in disorder." Reverend Scheuerman understood the broad reform of human society that Srila Prabhupada was proposing, but Monseigneur Kern thought of it as elitism. His concern, as Reverend Scheuerman presented it on his behalf, was for the poor, the downtrodden, those who suffer and those who are deprived. Prabhupada was frank with him. He said it was imagination to think that one can change that?there will always be a richer class, a middle class and a poor class in human society. Before coming to America he had thought that everyone here was rich. But after arriving he saw there were so many bums lying on the street. In London he had also seen so many hippies lying in the parks with the police moving them on. So simply having money will not change things. He said by good intelligence we can solve the problem of food. Daily we are feeding a thousand men in Mayapur and in Detroit many local people are coming to eat with the devotees. But, he told his visitors, a man is really poor if he is in ignorance. "We are not simply supplying food. Anyone who is coming, he is getting spiritual education. Not that it is a free hotel. No. It is not that. We give them spiritual education. You come here, you take your shelter, you take your food and learn how to be first-class man. That is our program. Don't be implicated in sinful activities. Be God conscious and live here with us comfortably, take your food. We have got this nice palace." Reverend Scheuerman said he thought that Prabhupada's program had a great appeal for many young people because of its Eastern origins. Prabhupada was quick to correct him. "It is not Eastern, Western. It is the life. Just like to become peaceful, is it Eastern or Western? Peaceful is peaceful. Why do you bring Eastern?" "No, but the way in which, the method in which... is it Eastern? This is not to say it is bad; it is good too. There are many traditions... " "No, I mean to say, it we look for Eastern, Western, then it becomes sectarian. But it is for all. If you teach a person to become peaceful, it is not the question of Eastern and Western. It is meant for everyone." Reverend Scheuerman nodded in agreement. "Jesus said, 'Blessed are the peacemakers; they shall see God.' Yes." "That's right," Prabhupada told him. "So why should you say that it is Eastern or Western?" "Well your methodology, much of your personal vocabulary, your garb, is from the East." "It is not personal. It may be said that in Eastern countries or in India these things are very much appreciated and developed. That is another thing. But the thing as it is, it is neither Eastern or Western." "Oh, good. I grant it that the principles that you are utilizing are general and universal. Granted." Prabhupada had Dhristadyumna Maharaja read from the eighteenth chapter of Bhagavad-gita, and he one-by-one described the various qualities of the brahmana. He emphasized that the main program is to train people in one of the four natural divisions of human society. The priests were interested in where Srila Prabhupada intended to do his teaching and who would do it. Prabhupada explained that as some men were trained to the first-class standard then they in turn would train others; it was not one man's task. "The thing is that I have established so many centers. So I have to go from one center to another just to encourage them. Otherwise I am old enough. I am eighty years. So traveling is not very good job for me, but still I do it just to encourage them." "Your lines of authority then come from you, or is it an elective authority?" Monseigneur Kern inquired. "Everything is work on higher authority. I have got my secretaries. I have got about twenty secretaries who are in charge of some group of temples." "I see. And you appoint the secretaries then who are in charge of the groups, each local group." "Yes. I try to manage as far as possible, but I'm not getting any government's cooperation. It is all my personal endeavor." Reverend Scheuerman showed particular interest in the talk of training. "Do you hope to acquire school buildings for teaching school?" "Yes, why not? If there is arrangement for financing such school we can start, very nice." Monseigneur Kern revealed the thinking of his companion. "Father would sell you a fine school." Reverend Scheuerman laughed. "We have a building that will be available shortly if you want to start a school." It seemed so typical of the state of the Church. Srila Prabhupada has many times pointed out (even at the start of this conversation), that many of our centers were formerly churches?Los Angeles, Melbourne, Toronto?the Church could not maintain them but we are filling them up. He laughed along with the priests and encouraged them. "So let us cooperate." Reverend Scheuerman agreed. "Let us cooperate. And your teachers. There's no question that the kind of thing you're talking about here is needed." It was a long session and of the two guests, Reverend Scheuerman was sharpest and most alert to the points Srila Prabhupada made. He followed Prabhupada's reasoning closely and seemed to agree with everything he said. At the end Prabhupada had the devotees present them with flower garlands and maha-prasadam just off the altar. Reverend Scheuerman was clearly enlivened by his meeting and genuinely appreciative of Srila Prabhupada and the devotees. As he prepared to leave he told Prabhupada, "I feel very much like one of the disciples, so to speak, coming with the master, and it's a great privilege to be able to join this circle this evening." The devotees all cheered, and the priests left wreathed in smiles and laden with sweets. After their exit Jayadvaita prabhu commented to Srila Prabhupada that the priests liked to be in the role of his disciples. "If you remain to your principles," Prabhupada told him, "you can make the whole world your disciple." He quoted the first verse from Sri Upadesamrita. "You'll be accepted. We don't speak Eastern Western. We speak for everywhere. Or Christian or Hindu. We never speak like that. I think I never said like that, that: 'Our Eastern people think like that, Hindus think... ' I never said. Why shall I say? It is for everyone. If you do not become peaceful, that is your business. But when I say, 'You become peaceful,' that is meant for everyone." It was late and Prabhupada decided to retire. The devotees followed him to the stairs, chanting, "Jaya Prabhupada" all the way.