Justin conversation with Srila Prabhupada about ecology

Amogha had done well in arranging the evening guest. Justin Murphy,a well-groomed man in his early thirties, wearing a business suit and tie,appeared bright and alert. Justin was a geographer, and worked as a Scientific Services Officer for the CSIRO (Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation).

Justin began the conversation by describing to Prabhupada some of the goals of his organisation: to protect and preserve Australia's diverse flora and fauna; to improve agricultural production and forestry, and to make life and opportunities better for the people in general. He frankly admitted, though, how modern man had created many, many problems "some practically irreversible." We have become, to an extent, slaves to twentieth century civilisation. Our predecessors, the Aborigines, were in fact much better at maintaining and conserving the Central Australian landscapes than any Australians since European colonisation. They lived in almost perfect harmony with their environment for thousands of years. In a little over one hundred years, European man has done irreparable damage to not only the vegetation but also the soils of arid Australia. ?It's damage that will probably never ever be repaired because the environment is so delicate in Central Australia that as soon as our cloven-footed animals, our sheep and our cattle, for example, are brought into the arid areas, they eat, they trample, they remove vegetation. This loosens the soil; the soil is very thin. It's very infertile, and it blows away. And virtually all you have left is rock, and nothing grows, of course, on rock. ?In Perth, since European settlement, we've removed forests, cut down trees, tilled the soil, and we've changed the natural order of things. Rabbits, introduced by Europeans have been an ecological disaster. And of course, although Australia is very rich in many natural resources, it's quite poor in water. Even though water is so basic for life, in Perth we've done an excellent job in ruining it! The water is becoming more and more salty. So our organisation is trying to do research and strike a balance between benefiting the people and the environment.?

Justin's intelligent demeanour prompted Srila Prabhupada to present the Vedic solution to ecological problems. Prabhupada selected a verse from Bhagavad-gita and directed Amogha to read it aloud. "All living bodies subsist on food grains, which are produced from rains. Rains are produced by the performance of yajna, sacrifice, and yajna is born of prescribed duties." Amogha also read Prabhupada's purport to the verse, which shed light on the problems that Justin had noted. 'Food grains or vegetables are factually eatables. The human being eats different kinds of food grains, vegetables, fruits, etc., and the animals eat the refuse of the food grains and vegetables, grass, plants, and so on. Human beings who are accustomed to eating meat and flesh must also depend on the production of vegetation in order to eat the animals. Therefore, ultimately, we have to depend on the production of the field and not on the production of big factories.The field production is due to sufficient rain from the sky, and such rains are controlled by demigods like Indra, the Sun, the Moon, and they are all servants of the Lord. The Lord can be satisfied by sacrifices; therefore, one who cannot perform them will find himself in scarcity, that is the law of nature. Yajna, specifically the sankirtana-yajna prescribed for this age, must be therefore performed to save us at least from a scarcity of food.' 

Justin was listening carefully. "Must we all perform yajna?" he asked. "Yes," Prabhupada replied. "But it is not a very difficult job. We can sit together family-wise, community-wise, or in the office, in the factory, we can sit down together and glorify the Lord. Is this a very difficult job?"

Justin: You make it sound very, very simple of course.

Prabhupada: Yes, then why don't you accept it?

Justin: Well, I for one might. But ?

Prabhupada: No, no, I am not talking about you.

Justin: No, no, sure, certainly, but imagine the man, as we have to consider, the men, the thousands of them on their tractors, at their bulldozers, hacking down natural forest, there are so many people in Australia who would not have time. They are too busy making money.

Prabhupada: But what you will do with money? If there is no grain, then will you eat money?

Justin laughed. "Certainly not."  "So," 

Prabhupada continued, the general plan is that you must have sufficient water. And that water must fall down from the cloud, not by your system you pump out water from the sea and utilise. Justin agreed. ?No, sure, we can't do that. We can't do that.? ?Yes. Therefore you must have pure water. And that water is manufactured or supplied through God's machine, not your machine.? ?Certainly not,? said Justin. ?And I wouldn't presume to suggest in any way that that was the case.? ?So that problem is solved if you perform sacrifice. That is the verse. Annad bhavanti bhutani ,a very simple formula. If we follow this formula, we will have a regular water supply. Yajna means to satisfy the Supreme Lord. Yajnah karma-samudbhavah. Karma means your activities. You are working as a geographer, and I am a religious preacher, and he is a cultivator, he is a factory worker, he is a motor car driver. So that is all right. But if we sit down together and perform yajna simply to glorify the Lord, where is the loss on your part or my part or his part "Yajna means we chant the holy name of the Lord. Where is the difficulty?" "I wish it were as simple as that for the majority of people," said Justin. "It is simple," Prabhupada said. "Even the child can take part. Man, woman, educated, non-educated, rich man, poor man, worker, everyone can sit down and chant the Hare Krishna mantra." But how about the people living next door or the people ? No, they can form different groups. You can form your group. Suppose there are one hundred gentlemen in this neighbourhood. We can sit down. If he has no time they can sit down with family members for half an hour and chant Hare Krishna. Where is the difficulty?? Justin liked the idea, but thought it didn't sound practical. "No difficulty at all. But it doesn't happen, does it?" "We have to introduce it," Prabhupada explained. "That is our movement. The people should be educated." But of course there are conflicting educations, aren't there? Whatever they may be, said Prabhupada. "If there is some gain, why not try it?" Justin still couldn't see how it would work. A delightful idea, a beautiful idea, and a very simple-sounding idea. But how about the Anglicans, the Roman Catholics  ?No, whatever it may be, any religious system ? religious system means connection with God. We are asking: ?Chant the holy name of God?.? ?Any man's God?? ?Any man's God. God is one. God cannot be two. I may say ?Krishna?, you may say ?Jehovah?, the Muslims may say ?Allah?, or others may say something else, but the aim is God.? Justin wondered how chanting could help solve the problems of industrialisation such as heavy pollution, over-exploitation of natural resources, and excessive wealth in the hands of multi-national corporations. Prabhupada's answer was simple. If one were satisfied with water and sufficient food grains there would be no need for modern industry. Justin continued to hear attentively. Prabhupada described that most men followed the path of pravritii marga?the path of increasing sense enjoyment. Such life, Prabhupada described, was no better than the life of the cats and dogs. ?If you simply remain like dog, then in the next life ? Do you believe in a next life?? Prabhupada asked. Justin said he didn't. Prabhupada gave Justin a nutshell description of the science of reincarnation. ?Where is your childhood body?? ?Here it is,? said Justin confidently. ?It's grown.? ?No. No, it is changed. Just try to understand. Your boy's body or childhood body is no longer existing.? ?But they're the same bones,? argued Justin. ?It's the same skin.? ?You are the same man, that's a fact. You understand that you were a child, jumping. You remember that body, but that body is not existing.? ?I can't agree.? ?And why not?? asked Prabhupada. ?Suppose somebody had seen your childhood body, and for many years he has not seen you, and he all of a sudden comes. He says, ?Oh, you are the same?? He will be surprised because he saw you in a childhood body. The body has changed.? Justin was obdurate. ?But they're the same bones. It's the same skin. My face looks just about the same.? ?No,? Prabhupada explained. ?Medically, it is not the same.? Justin was still not convinced. ?The functions are different, but it's the same heart that's beating, the same veins ?? ?No, no, no, it is not the same body. It is imperceptibly changing. Therefore we think that it's growing. But it is changing. It is changing swiftly.? Prabhupada explained the point by way of an analogy. ?Just like in the cinema spool. The picture is changing, and because it is changing so swiftly, you are seeing that one man is moving. In actual fact, there are only hundreds and thousands of pictures moving. So your body is changing at every moment. That is medical science.? Prabhupada's consistently succinct explanation started to make sense to Justin. ?Absolutely. Yes. At every moment.? Prabhupada brought the example to its natural conclusion. ?So you are changing your body. That's a fact. And you remember that you had such-and-such body. Therefore you are different from the body. This is the science. ?I am not this body. I am different from the body. I am changing bodies. Therefore I will have to change this body and accept another body ??? Prabhupada asked Amogha to read the relevant verse from the Bhagavad-gita. "As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realised soul is not bewildered by such a change." Prabhupada nodded his head. ?The simple truth. But people have no education. That is the defect of modern civilisation. This is the fact, that you are accepting every moment a different body. So after death you will have to accept another body. Now, we should know ?What kind of body am I going to accept next?? That is intelligence. That is civilisation.? This seemed to strike a chord with Justin. ?Do you mean if I come to that realisation, it will then allow me to continue to improve my mind, continue to study, to think, to gain knowledge beyond say, the normal sixty-five or seventy years that I might live in what I imagine to be this body?? Prabhupada agreed. ?Yes. Human life is meant for acquiring knowledge?real knowledge.? ?But so many people don't see it that way.? ?At least one class of men must be thoroughly conversant, thoroughly aware of things as they are. They are called brahmanas, first-class men. They may be few; it doesn't matter. Ideal class. People will learn by their behaviour, character and knowledge.? The idea of a first-class person aroused Justins interest. ?Where are they?? he asked. Prabhupada explained that there must be a department to train first-class men. Justin joked that there were none in the universities. ?So therefore it is chaotic,? said Prabhupada. ?No first-class men?all third-class, fourth-class.? Justin asked what the specifications for a first-class person were. Amogha read from the Bhagavad-gita, Chapter 18, verse 42. "Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness"these are the qualities by which the brahmanas work.? Prabhupada: This is a first-class man. Justin: Who decides whether a man is first-class or not? Prabhupada: Anyone can be trained up. Just like these boys. They were fourth-class, fifth-class, and now they are trained up to become first-class men. Just like anyone can become a geographer or an engineer by proper training. Justin turned to Amogha. ?Do you think you'll make it?? Amogha: I'm making progress. Prabhupada: They are young men. They are all within thirty years. Justin: And your aim, all of you, is to become first-class men? Jayadharma: Yes. Justin: Does it matter how long it might take you? Can you become first-class men soon? Within five years? Prabhupada: Oh, yes, sufficient, sufficient. We can make in one year. Justin: Really? I wish you all well. Well, thank you. I hope I won't give you offence if I look at my watch. I'm afraid my life is one of these selfish lives ? I wish you all well, and maybe I should think along those lines myself. It's been most interesting talking to you. Prabhupada: Yes, it is necessary to create a class of men, first-class, ideal. And if you all create fourth-class men, then there cannot be peace. It is not possible. Justin: Thank you. Prabhupada: Hare Krishna. Justin: Excellent talking to you. Thank you very much, and I wish you well in Melbourne. Srutakirti: Here is a sweet we have made from milk. Justin: Thank you. Good night. Prabhupada: Hare Krishna. Jaya Amogha gave Justin a couple of Back to Godhead magazines and walked with him to his car. Justin expressed his mind?he had found Prabhupada's arguments thought-provoking and convincing?especially those concerning the connection between contemporary problems and the bodily concept of life. As he was leaving he turned to Amogha and smiled. ?Now I have to go back to my fourth-class life.? Amogha related this to Srila Prabhupada, who was happy to hear the news. ?This means he has understood,? Prabhupada said. ?He is better than so many clergies.?